He allegedly also served children alcohol. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. One from RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he currently attends church. Sproul, Sr.), http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/guilty-conscience/. Do you realise how offensive that is? And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. Those who do so are implying there is some correlation. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600. Dr. R.C. The Downeys had two daughters, Patricia and Shirley. Parental instincts are to protect your child at all costs. Web site of Farber and Otteman Funeral Homes and Cremation Center, Sac City, Lake View, Odebolt, and Wall Lake, Iowa To read about the extent of his sins and abuses is so depressing. or a swindler [scams, cons] Today RC Sproul Jr pleaded not guilty and requested a trial by jury. (This is confusing me ). Ouch. (caps and emphasis intended). I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. oh my goodness .. Just one grandparent can lead you to many That is horrific. The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. So, thankfully, I am on my week break before school starts again, because if I hadnt been following the comment thread, you would have been comfortable saying that I do not agree with treatment for alcoholics (until I corrected you). You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. That was the last time I saw him alive. She was single and did not driveharmful only to herself. We want it to be exposed, but we must be careful, have sources checked, etc. This man needs help. You assume a lot and you would be wrong. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. Those that saw the issues, which were primarily with the entrepreneurial head pastor, minimized them and advised me to hang in there and focus on my small group fellowship. And I know about substance abuse. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. and who was reeling from Fridays put downs and for calls to kick alcoholics out of churches. I advised him that with Jesus help he could choose not to walk that path. I appreciate the kind words. At least, from the description. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (n e Yardis) Sproul. Contra Costa County? Can you please identify the comment? I am not sure that you know my background. Thanks, Dee and Deb, for all you do on TWW. @ brian: In the end, people hurt. This only applies if you are a member of the in-crowd. The terrible way I have heard that an alcoholic manipulates others is that he/she will deny drinking, but then plot and plan to do anything that gets them to that next drinkie .. and nothing or no one, not family or innocent people, are considered. I took doctor-prescribed anti-depressant meds for years. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. 3. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. But I wouldnt support putting him out of the church the way hes put others out. Prison might have done Sproul some good. Barbra said that R.C. That being said I think the far more important issue is figuring out some ways of keeping the public safe from him. My husbands father was an alcoholic. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. I hope it is true. If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Gail wrote: Re Sproul, Im kind of with Jack in that its hard to have sympathy for him, because Ive seen too many other things that bother me. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. I have read every single post youve made in this thread so far. I fully expect the 2000 BF&M to be modified in the future to make it more Calvinistic. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!) I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. If that is the case, the person who says, Aw, come on. I dont support enabling him. It would be rare that any of them are qualified when it comes to alcoholism and substance abuse in general. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. First of all, it can be pretty hard to define just what gossip is. From Dees original article, which seems a long time ago now: Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. Anger, no. It makes some of them feel uncomfortable for some reason. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. Velour wrote: re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. And regardless of your answer, if people in his sphere (church) are aware, but ignoring the issues, then they have something to answer for as well. I tried really hard to help and could not. Here is one wonderful article by a Christian woman in recovery, who waged her battle with alcoholism in secret and she explains what she thinks the church can do. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. Assuming there is a correlation only gives Sproul the perfect excuse he needs to justify his drinking, and I can guarantee you its also the excuse he used with his drunk driving attorney who then used it on the Prosecutor and Judge: My client lost his wife to cancer in 2011 and his daughter in 2012. They and their families are all the better for it. That is them saying that, not me. im sorry this is happening, dee. He was 78. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. 12-step groups like Al-Anon and Adult Children of Alcoholics also address these issues. You seem to think more highly of church than I do in these matters, however, because I think that getting church to perform up to speed in these areas is a hopeless quest. I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. He is now a wonderful father and husband. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. Clearly. Thankfully, the truth of Scripture (all have sinned) helped me to realize that there is only even ground at the foot of the Cross. But unless you are the owner of the blog its not okay for you to tell someone else to stop responding to you. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. wrote: I said in my post that the topic is banned on your blog (which is a shame, because learning about it has helped me immensely. I would ask that you not use it again though. Thank you, Deb. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. it did sound harsh, didnt it, sometimes getting angry is the first step out of depression . And then there are those who say stuff that is good as gold and kind to the core. I am not an alcoholic. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. It is ASTOUNDING to me that Christians make excuses for a TWICE DEFROCKED PASTOR. You know I wanted to share the gospel with him, go through the 4 spiritual laws, take him down the Romans road, walk him through the gospel of John etc. do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. I remember those days very well. Instead of surgeries and treatments, all she would have to do is avoid bending her elbow to bring alcohol to her lips and she would be cured., Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. Because DUIs are manly i have mental pictures of what everyone looks like wonder how accurate i am. The elders at our former church were quite enamored of RC Sr, RC Jr, and their teachings. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; We have gone several rounds. Would a clergy-person uses their position to My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." Nourishment 101: R U Acquainted With Christ?. Jack wrote: R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I offered H.A. Good insights. We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. codependency). This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. (Dee replied) . Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Velour wrote: @ Barbara Roberts: I thought perhaps that JA and Barbara were referring to the entirety of RC Jrs choices and damage inflicted from his lofty position as spiritual authority, even though from the context that wasnt obvious. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. I concluded RC got off because he is a preachers son. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. Fried chicken yes, but fried chicken livers, no. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. Only in the past few months have I started posting a little here. Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. There are many lovely ones and I count several as close friends. I addressed the comment she did make because that is NOT how alcoholism/substance abuse is supposed to be treated. My cousin and wife were heroin addicts, their children suffered from neglect, were removed to foster homes.damage done.
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